Speaker 1: 0:00

Aiden, it's been 15, almost 16 years that we've known each other, and who would have thought we'd end up here doing a podcast together? But also the conversation I guess we're going to have is so different to probably how we started out. I think each of us have had, in your own words, different eras we've gone through in our lives of interests, of identities. You know, when I first met you, you were like the athlete kid at school. You're doing your decathlon, since pole vaulting was what you were obsessed with. Then you went into tricking and parkour, then we went through, I guess, uni life together and all of that. And now you've just hit 500,000 subscribers on YouTube, but not in any of the areas that you were initially interested in, maybe 10 years ago.

Speaker 1: 0:45

But of all things you've got into trading, card games, pokemon, creating all kinds of content, and I like it because I feel like in the last couple of years, since you've got back into YouTube, that part of you that I thought almost died for a little bit when you just got into working life, that kind of creative, artistic drama, aiden, has come out under your I guess what would you say your pseudonym, retro. And that was a crazy experience for me. It was a couple of months ago. We're at an expo in the city and you had like a bunch of, I guess, fans come up to you and refer to you as retro, and I'd never heard of you. I've always just known you as Aiden, but I guess the majority of the world now knows you as retro.

Speaker 2: 1:29

A hundred percent right. I think you know you can call them different eras in life and they might not seem related to one another, but I think the thing about being a creative is that one thing merges into the next, like the tunnel vision I had with triathlons and cycling and running. That just converted into being able to then focus really heavily on content creation. I was making videos when I was 14 years old about opening pencil cases little parody videos like that and we're doing parkour, we're doing flips and all this other kinds of stuff, and really the skill we're building there wasn't parkour, it was learning how to share your passion with the world.

Speaker 2: 2:08

And I think that that common thread has followed through everything that I've been interested in throughout my life and has led to a point now where I feel like I've really got a groove, it's a starting to really take off, and I'm feeling like this is where I can kind of take the rest of my life and really really kind of thrive through it. So yeah, it's a fun life, I'll put it that way. It's often quite stressful and it can be deflating at times, but when you're at your highs it's. You never regret any part of it.

Speaker 1: 2:42

So yes, it's been. An interesting trend that I've seen in you is over the last 10 years. You always look back. I guess we all do with nostalgia and great joy, like looking at the stressful times, like when you push through an exam, you pulled an all night, I get an assignment done, you just, you know you almost got physically sick from grinding so hard, but then the payoff at the end of it. And then you look back and you go. You look back at that time fondly.

Speaker 2: 3:08

The trick is to just never stop, just keep pushing and you might be making the wrong decisions or you might be going down the wrong path every now and then, but eventually, if you keep going and you keep adjusting, you get back on it and you have all those skills that you built through going through that wrong path.

Speaker 1: 3:24

Yeah, I guess you don't have the regret too, because you actually gave yourself a chance. Yeah, going to the whole changing path and the wrong path, I mean for both of us reinventing ourselves constantly over the different years, whether it's to do with interests or identities, like for a while there, you were a cyclist Well and truly.

Speaker 2: 3:40

I remember you competing on the Strava app getting into competing with the top people in Perth. Well, isn't that funny? Because with our new trading card game, geopals, we recently had a running competition on Strava, and the only reason I knew about Strava and how much fun it was is through cycling. So that's another example of the kind of passions merging together and it does it.

Speaker 1: 4:00

It kind of compounds on itself. Hey, because, like you've picked up all these different skills over the years and, as you said, strava comes in. Even with YouTube. It started out making a little funny tutorial videos. I remember watching that in chemistry and high school. And then also with the parkour, like just that, explaining, educating, being comfortable on camera, because I think it's maybe very easy for people to look at you now. In a way, you've been a bit of an overnight success. The last 12 months it's definitely been like an exponential change.

Speaker 2: 4:34

Well, to talk about that, I mean I've had YouTube since 2011. I think that's when I set up my first channel and the Parkour channel did okay. I think we got to, I think, 14,000 subscribers and I was feeling pretty good about that. But back then YouTube was never seen as a potential career. The value of being a public figure or creating content wasn't really there. Just making videos because you had fun doing it and I didn't know why I did. I was just kept making videos because I want people to see what I'm doing. So I dropped off and I started focusing on uni and things like that, stopped making videos entirely. But now it's kind of like when COVID hit, I started getting into Pokemon again and I kind of found the time to start making content again and now it's just like a lifestyle. It's awesome.

Speaker 1: 5:29

So how do you find as balancing all of that now, because you're still working full time and you're doing the whole content creator thing. How do you manage that?

Speaker 2: 5:41

It's tough, right. I think I'm going to make sacrifices to find the time to be able to make these videos. So I think I spend about four hours per 30 second video that I make. Wow has a lot involved in the process and we can go into that in more detail in a little bit, but essentially every second that I would otherwise be spending watching TV or hanging out with friends or doing stuff that I enjoy doing or doing things that I would do to relax, I've got to replace that with making content, creating new scripts, filming, etc.

Speaker 2: 6:22

And sometimes, when things are going really well and you're motivated on YouTube because your views are going up, your subscriber base is going up, you're getting lots of positive feedback for that effort. It's 100% what you want to be doing. You want to be making videos. You don't want to be spending time doing those other things. But when you're in a slump and maybe you're not going viral and you've made 10 videos and they've all performed fairly averagely, that's the hardest time to keep pushing through. And that, I think, is what is the difference between someone who ends up making it on YouTube or through these creative pursuits, because they keep going, because they have the passion for it and they see the long-term vision versus the people that just drop off because they feel like it's over, just because they're having a slump.

Speaker 1: 7:06

How have you got through those slumps? Because I think, if we go beyond even just content creators and just think about creatives in general, because I think, whether it's even if you're learning music, for instance, for a long time until you get to a certain level of ability, it's not even fun because you're not playing anything that sounds good or doing your first performance is sometimes there's. You have to put in so much work before there's any kind of payoff in the scene that you're pursuing.

Speaker 1: 7:31

So I guess even with YouTube, for instance, when you've gone through one of those slumps, how have you maintained being consistent and pushing through when you feel like there's not the payoff, where it's not really worth?

Speaker 2: 7:44

it. It's a really good question. I think it comes down to your kind of life philosophy, and so, for me, if I'm going to be fully authentic as a human and live a life that I'm not going to regret, I need to be a creative, if I need to be putting out content that I feel needs to be shared with the world, because that's what drives me, that's what makes me happy, that's what is not a chore to me, it's something I need to do, and if I lived a life where I dropped all of that side of me and just did the corporate stuff, just did my nine to five job and kind of lived in that box, I would live a very regretful life in the long term. So when I have these slumps and I'm at my lowest points, it's actually not a decision that needs to be made because there is no option. I don't want to.

Speaker 2: 8:32

you know it's either I have to do this it's like I lived a life without meaning and I have lots of regret because of that or I just keep going. You know which one do you choose? And if you frame the question like that, you'll always choose the decision to keep going, because it's amazing.

Speaker 1: 8:52

It's like building that life that you don't really want a holiday from. You don't want to escape, because I think sometimes people, always we really love the idea of a holiday and I know we're like this. Like you know, we'll go on a trip together, but then within three, four days you're kind of itching to get back to your regular life, to keep working on, like those projects. So it's a delicate balance. Hey, because you do, you want it, you actually want to be busy, you want to be grinding at something that excites you, that you're passionate about.

Speaker 1: 9:18

What would you say to like people that haven't found that thing that's worth it? I mean, you're saying no regret and I guess for you it's changed. Like you said, it's been different eras where you've had different interests. But you know, in terms of identifying and finding those things where it's like, okay, I'm willing to lock in on this and keep going at it, even though I may not see the results. But you know you're saying you have, like, no choice, but otherwise you're going to feel regret. How do you find that thing?

Speaker 2: 9:47

Yeah, and that's a really good question. I think it's. The pursuit is not for everyone. Like, I'm almost jealous of the people that enjoy their nine to five lives and you know they live a very balanced life. They have time with their friends, they do their day jobs and they're happy. If you're happy, that's the goal. If you're happy like 100%, you don't need to find that creative thing it's. If you're not happy and you know that there's more that you want, or you know there's something in you that you want to share with the rest of the world and you're not being able to do that, that is the type of person that does need to go on this kind of second burden that you got to release.

Speaker 1: 10:25

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 10:25

Yeah, and not everyone is kind of like that, right, but the advice I would give, and going back to your question, how do you actually find that? I think you start off with, well, what are you passionate about? And that's always a hard question, right? Because I remember when I was a kid getting asked that question, I would always frame it in like what are you passionate about? That is a stereotypical job, you know. It's like what am I passionate about?

Speaker 1: 10:51

What are you passionate about that fits in this box? Yeah, this box Is it energy.

Speaker 2: 10:55

Is it? Medicine Is it?

Speaker 1: 10:57

mining.

Speaker 2: 10:57

Which one is it? What am I passionate about? But what I didn't think about back then, when I was a kid, is, you know, I'm passionate about Pokemon.

Speaker 1: 11:07

Yeah, I'm passionate about, but you discount it. Well, that's not a thing. It's not a thing, it doesn't count.

Speaker 2: 11:13

But you know you can create commercial avenues out of anything literally anything and that's why Pokemon's a thing, that's why it's a multi-billion dollar franchise. It's not an easy thing to build, obviously, but it's possible. And you know YouTube is a thing, because social media is a thing. You can make money from making content about anything and I bet you, if you love it there's millions of other people that do as well and if you're good enough at being a creative on that topic and giving people the value that they want on that topic, they will watch you and the advertisers will reward you for it, yeah.

Speaker 1: 11:46

Yeah, it's funny like just the world has changed so much now, like even from when we were at school. And it's also like when you're doing that vocational kind of not training, but when you're sitting in towards the end of school and they go, well, what's your career going to be? And you're having to start to think along those lines in terms of whether you're going to study or work. There's careers and occupations and work or jobs that hadn't existed yet, entire industries. Like being a YouTuber wasn't a thing, ai wasn't a thing, or you just had never been exposed to it. Like you didn't know that you could turn a trading card game into a legitimate business, I know, until you do it, until you do it, yeah. Or you meet people that have done it, something similar, and you're like, wow, I didn't even know that was a thing. And so it's so hard to make these decisions as a young person when you've never even been exposed to what's out there.

Speaker 2: 12:39

I think when we were growing up that's definitely true. I think the new generation of today is learning that that is an option very early on. But what I would say is for the people that were just passionate about it and didn't really do it for the money at all back when YouTube was just starting up. They were just putting content up because they wanted to make videos that people would see, like that was just the reason they did it.

Speaker 2: 13:03

It wasn't about money or anything like that. They got a huge competitive advantage because that was when there was a less competition and they built up audiences. And then all of a sudden it did get commercialized and it's like, wow, now they're at the top of this mountain, the first ever kind of content creator. Smosh I don't know if you remember them. No, no, Smosh. They made like little parody skits Quite often featured Pokemon but featured all sorts of things, and they got like millions of millions of views. Ray William Johnson's another one.

Speaker 1: 13:34

I remember millions of millions of views.

Speaker 2: 13:36

He had 12 million subscriber channel in the early days of YouTube I remember. I think he's got like 16 million now, but he's just returned to YouTube. After trying to make it in Hollywood, he sold his channel, bought it back and now he's at the top of this mountain again. He's getting crazy views because he's got like 15, 20 years of practice from when it didn't pay.

Speaker 1: 13:56

It is a skill set. It is a skill set. I wonder if you think about early YouTube versus now, and this is kind of thinking about. We have all these. Even where there's building a personal brand or being on camera, like thinking about authenticity or doing something for the love of it, is sometimes a challenge Cause do you feel like back then not every title was a clickbait title. People put a lot less thought into their thumbnails and that kind of thing Do you find now you live in attention between creating the content you want to make cause you're passionate versus the content you know that works for the algorithm Like it's a good question, but I think the answer to that is no, and I think if it ever became yes, I would no longer be motivated to make videos and I would rather just work a nine to five job.

Speaker 2: 14:44

You know it's if you're if you're that enslaved by what the algorithm wants or you can't figure out a way to make your passion fit with the algorithm, which I think is what you're aiming to do all the time. You can't do that. It's no different to having a job. You're still. You're still just a you know.

Speaker 1: 15:01

Are the things that you put in place to like protect yourself from that, from from stopping this, like channel you're creating becoming a thing you feel like enslaved to, or like that, where you haven't got that freedom anymore, was the vision that you set up at the very start of the channel, right?

Speaker 2: 15:15

So for me it was like I just got so much entertainment out of nostalgia, right. In general, nostalgia is the is the theme, and you know it started with. Pokemon. Cards are nostalgic, cool, but then you broaden that. What else is nostalgic? The, the family banter you had with your dad and your and your and your mom and your friends as a kid. You know the, the, the manipulative tactics you would use to convince your parents to have a slave over you know, your dad would have be hiding the Game Boy everywhere.

Speaker 2: 15:46

And it's like you look back at that, you're like I can't believe that was actually a thing.

Speaker 1: 15:50

Yes, it's so true that there's such a hook and I think that kind of reaches across generations. Because I was. I was sitting with my parents over Christmas and we were watching a bunch of your your shorts.

Speaker 2: 16:00

I was found that really funny.

Speaker 1: 16:02

And it's funny because, as you're saying, like those, the dad character, the son, the older brother, like they totally were relating to that as well. I mean, they Pokemon wasn't nostalgic for them, but they had kids that did all the those dynamics she talked about like play out.

Speaker 2: 16:17

You know they sell it, sell that and get related to it and I think I think your point around what, what are the protective mechanisms? I think one of them is that I'm not tying my whole channel to Pokemon. Pokemon is an element of nostalgia for me and for obviously millions, if not billions, of other kids and adults of course, more adults because it's nostalgic for them. But, like I think, what was I going to say? Yeah, it's one of the protective mechanisms, because I can deviate from Pokemon. I can go to any form of nostalgia and still have content.

Speaker 2: 16:53

That is true to why I started the channel. I could just keep moving it, moving it, moving it, moving it, moving it. And if I ever come up with a new idea or a new vision that I want to start making content around maybe it's making videos around content creation itself. Maybe it's making videos around geo-powers, which is the new trading card game that we're making We'd set up different channels for that, just because you don't want to blur the lines of why you've set up a channel. So, yeah, I think nostalgia is the theme behind the channel and we obviously do that in a skip format, but we can do that in any format. We can change that. If I get bored of the skits, we can move the characters around.

Speaker 1: 17:32

So how did you stumble into skits? Because I think some we've talked about this off-camera a bunch of times but finding what works and gets it like that kind of intersection between the content you like creating and the content that's really resonating. How did you end up doing the format of skits and shorts that you do? Because for anyone that's listening, if you were to go to Poker Retro's channel right now on YouTube and you watch shorts, there's hundreds of videos but you could scroll through them and there's definitely a consistent way of doing it you've kind of landed on. How did that come about?

Speaker 2: 18:07

That's a really good question. I think it started with watching a whole bunch of other skit creators, so the Fairburn Brothers they were Australian comedian content creators, yeah, okay. And then I saw I've forgotten this guy's name, but he was a guy that did that same format where he was all the characters, and I remember watching that and just being like wow, that is so engaging, that is so funny. Just the concept of that same person being everyone. It's just like a, and now you've got all the filters and everything.

Speaker 2: 18:39

Yeah, exactly, and I was just like oh man, this is so good, and I feel like just talking to the camera doesn't really convey the kind of message that you want to give. I can't go to my audience and say, oh, I picture this, the dad is getting angry at the kid for playing Game Boy for too long. That's not going to work.

Speaker 2: 19:01

The only way to convey that element of nostalgia is by acting it out. That's the only way you can do it, and so you can act it out in different ways. You can do very professional short film style content. I don't think that hits the mark with the nostalgic angle very well, because it's too serious.

Speaker 1: 19:22

Yeah, it's not really coming from that emotional place, right.

Speaker 2: 19:24

It's too serious. So I was like, well, I'm all the characters, just like this other YouTuber was. I was like that could work. That'd be pretty funny Pretending. You know just the irony of me now being an adult, pretending to be younger again and also being the adult, it's kind of like they know that I understand all the angles when I'm acting it out.

Speaker 1: 19:47

Yeah, it's true. I mean you were definitely the full spectrum because I remember when you first got into Pokemon long before the YouTube channel became a big part of it you were trading Pokemon cards because there was that boom back in 2014,. You bought a Pokemon base set and this was why we're at uni and I think how much did you spend on it? Initially it was like 400 bucks, 400 Australian 20 grand now, $20,000 now.

Speaker 1: 20:13

So it's been the Pokemon boom of COVID, basically, and I remember you traded like flipping Pokemon cards as a bit of a business, yeah. When you made videos about like the analytical side of like the market trends, economic analysis of Pokemon cards. So you've done this serious, like talking head, analytical, logical kind of content, and then at some point there was this shift where you went more into the entertainment side of Pokemon, more down the nostalgia line, and then that's kind of what really led you to blow up. It's a bit of shifting visions.

Speaker 2: 20:49

I think, like you know, when you think about the boom of Pokemon, that's what I was interested in analytics. I loved analytics. I loved, like, running numbers on things, didn't even think about the entertainment side, it was just like you know, it was this community of analysts Basically. But then I lost interest in that because you know money's not everything and you know I've gone through lessons as I've grown older and I've kind of learned that you know I'm not really making much money from Pokemon by doing day trading. Yeah, you know there was a, yeah, there was the big money gain from the having it for 10, 15 years. You know, buying 2014, selling in 2020. But if you day trading, making sense if not losing money.

Speaker 2: 21:36

It kind of became this like well, I'm not really that interested in analytics anymore, but I still like Pokemon. And then it was oh, why do I still like Pokemon if it's not just about money? I'm like, well, because it's got all these nostalgic attachments. And then that then led to the next vision for the channel, which was make videos about that. Let's, let's build a community, build an audience, that's, you know, all there together to share that nostalgic feeling.

Speaker 1: 22:00

And then you've now created like a next generation version of that with your own trading card game, Cheaphouse.

Speaker 2: 22:05

Well, that was part of it. You know Pokemon's becoming a multi-billion dollar company, kind of, to an extent, loses its touch at that real, like deep, nostalgic level, and you know they can't cater for every individual anymore. So what I thought was you know, cheaphouse can kind of try and do that. Obviously we're going to completely change the concept. It's not not about attacking and defending, it's not about catching them all. It's a whole new concept which is about treasure hunting. So the characters have abilities that help them find treasure. You got to build your GEOPAL team and race to get the treasure first, and then we're going to, you know, hide cards in real life so people can literally go outside, get off their screens and try and find these things and that can create nostalgia. You know they're hanging out with their friends. They're hanging out with their parents. The parents are hanging out and getting like quality time with their kids. It's like a family, friendly, nostalgic feeling.

Speaker 1: 23:00

It was very eye opening for me when we were that exhibition and there was that family that came up and.

Speaker 1: 23:05

I think the uncle and the son or something. They were down down South, three hours from Perth, and they went and found a car that you hit on social media while you were down there and bumped into you and it's. It's a I like how you've got this convergence of like the technology and the digital side. So you've got a discord channel where you've got people chatting online and there's forums. At the same time, you're shipping cards all over the world. There's this global thing going on, but it's real and it's tangible.

Speaker 1: 23:34

Like you can go, hang out and have real community, real places. Yeah yeah, I'm excited to see what happens over the next 10 years with GioPals. Yeah, cause that's where it's going to really come to life. Cause then, then it will. You have that? Or remember the early days of GioPals when there was this, this and this?

Speaker 2: 23:53

It's the nostalgia angle to it all, 100%, and I think I think these days, if you don't have a pretty solid social media presence or personal brand, I would almost say it's very hard to kickstart any sort of business.

Speaker 2: 24:07

You can have the best card game in the world, but if you don't have the audience or or you haven't built a platform to be able to share your creation, it probably won't go very far. And that's especially true for a trading card game, cause when you're starting the, the costs of manufacturing are quite high and you're probably not going to be making money. You're actually going to be losing money for the first kind of five years. So you need you need to have like like A the money coming through from the ads and stuff from from social media to help fund the, the project. But B if you don't at least have a couple of people that are following it and helping to fund it, then you're going to be pretty deep in the negative fairly quickly with no hopes of it ever taking off, cause you don't have the platform to to make that happen when it, when it is ready.

Speaker 1: 24:56

So so would you say. It's it's it's important to build the platform first, then yeah, yeah, I think.

Speaker 2: 25:01

I think part of it is you've got to build the platform and take people on the journey through the platform you got to. You got to you know, don't just build your, your, your new product or your or whatever you're doing in the shadows for five years and then come out with it Like you expect everyone to want it. You got to show everyone the trials and tribulations you've had to go through or the struggles you've had to go through to build it. Then people really understand the fundamentals of of your brand.

Speaker 1: 25:28

Personally challenged by this. Yeah, yeah, just to shed more light behind the scenes and share the journey.

Speaker 2: 25:33

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 25:34

Cause that's definitely the path you've taken.

Speaker 2: 25:36

Yeah, Cause then they learn and they have input into what what works and what doesn't. And you're getting constant feedback constant, and the community is growing and growing and growing and you're seeing what's working and what's not working as the community shape shifts over the time, and so it's like a constant feedback loop that results in a product that's probably a million times better Honestly, probably 10 times better than what you would have created if you hadn't got that feedback throughout the development of it. And not only that not only do you end up with a product that's better aligned with the community that you've developed, but you also then have an audience for your product.

Speaker 1: 26:14

So you can actually market it.

Speaker 2: 26:16

Yeah, and and, and. It's like, I think you know, having the big YouTube channel that's built around nostalgia, creating a product that is built around nostalgia is the best way to go about, you know, making this a full-time career.

Speaker 1: 26:29

It's like I really like to the the healthy vision and mentality you've built behind your powers and the YouTube channel.

Speaker 1: 26:36

Because you know, as as I've seen, as you've, we've done and talked about, there are those slumps where you're not getting the reach on your videos anymore because the algorithm changed.

Speaker 1: 26:45

Or you know just personally, you're busy with life, like you're overwhelmed at work, you have personal stuff going on, and so it gets really hard and it's if it's just about the product or it's just about you know, because there might be some delays on the artwork for the cards or there might be just things that are going wrong that are causing stress and tension, and if you're just obsessed with the product or the money or the reach or the views, you kind of you give up or you'll lose touch, whereas I feel like you've come to a really healthy place where you are taking a really long-term view and maybe talk a little bit about that, how you're now framing YouTube and GeoPals to be this sustainable, long-term thing.

Speaker 1: 27:23

Because I remember we went for a walk through Kings Park the other day and we were chatting about GeoPals and you were talking about you know in in years time, how you could see being part of like school curriculums. Yeah, you know, you've already kind of, you know, even with the running, with the Strava thing now. Now it's like you know, you've got people that are going out there and like trying to do this running challenge so they could win a certain card, or unlock it.

Speaker 1: 27:47

Yeah, yeah, like talk about that a little bit like how you've kind of taken that on, that bigger vision, and how that's helped you.

Speaker 2: 27:53

Yeah, I think, I think, um, it's. It's interesting how, how the path has just become clearer and clearer and clearer as time goes on. So it started off. If we go all the way back to year nine, when I was a, when I was like 14 or something, yeah, um, I was just making videos because it was fun. And that was the first flag that said hey, aiden, you're probably a creative person. Okay, you're probably going to need to do this or you're going to have a miserable kind of life, cause it's just who you are Like. You have to be like this.

Speaker 2: 28:24

And and I didn't make anything of it I was just like, yeah, I'm just going to make videos, I'm just going to do it just cause it's like feels right and I enjoyed it. And it wasn't about money, it wasn't about a future vision or anything like that. Um, until it got to the point where I stopped making videos for a little while, started focusing on uni and stuff and and my job and all that kind of stuff, I was like YouTube's not going to be a thing. Yeah, then I had this realization in, you know, covid times 2020, when I was like actually needs to be a thing, because if it's not, then, um, I'm not going to live the life that I want to be living.

Speaker 2: 28:55

And so that is when the longterm vision started shaping up and it was like okay, so what can I practically do to make this a sustainable career or a sustainable longterm venture? Um, and you know, the the first step in that is okay, well, I need to build, I need to have a vision, I need to have a strategy for all of this, and, um, first of all, it was, you know, a lot, of, a lot of trial and error, trying to figure out what content I actually enjoy making. Getting to that point around, well, I want to make content about nostalgia, because that is what I enjoy making content about.

Speaker 1: 29:32

Is this, when you like, you've said that's like, that's like the core theme, and you've got almost like this one word like nostalgia, and this means something, and that's like your anchor point you come back to in terms of shaping the content Is is that something that you did? You ever sit down with a piece of paper and like, ever try to write this stuff out? Like what did what did that actually look like All?

Speaker 2: 29:51

the time. Yeah, no, always trying to pull out like a PowerPoint document and summarize what the strategy is, and it's nostalgia at the top and it branches as like a tree diagram.

Speaker 1: 30:01

Oh, wow, Okay Um but it.

Speaker 2: 30:04

But it always changes and you know it's always shifting, but the thing that stays common is that nostalgia.

Speaker 1: 30:09

I find that really, cause we've never talked about that before, but I'm I'm big on. I have all these notebooks and stuff and I will constantly be drawing diagrams Cause you have all these like ideas of what you want to do, what could be some of the themes, and you're trying to find that yeah 100%, yeah 100%.

Speaker 2: 30:25

But, um, yeah, anyway, we'll figure that out. So that was the first point where we got a starting point for this strategy. And then it was like, okay, but without a big audience we're never going to have, you know, the chance of this exceeding as a long-term venture. So it was like, well, how do you get a big audience? Through nostalgia.

Speaker 2: 30:44

And that's where the skits came in, that's where you know there was so much trial and error with figuring out what kind of content that aligns with my vision, would suit the algorithm. And, and Mr Beast always says, the other word for the algorithm is, you know, you can just replace algorithm with with like the the audience. So what, like what? What would suit the audience? It's the same thing. The algorithm suits what the audience wants. The only difference is that the algorithm kind of relies and like doesn't always give you a chance. So you need to really push it until it does. But I think once you've got, you know, a bit of a base and you've got a couple of thousand people watching you, it does give you a chance. And then it's just about yeah, what? What kind of content does that audience relate to?

Speaker 1: 31:32

So what was the early stages? Because you're saying you build that base audience and then you got to find that, that rhythm with the algorithm or the audience to grow it. So because you didn't start on YouTube, did you? Or when you started on YouTube, how many, how many followers did you have when you first went on to YouTube? How about?

Speaker 2: 31:49

well, when I first went on to YouTube, I had zero yeah yeah, yeah, but I guess particularly with the retro channel.

Speaker 2: 31:56

Yeah, we had, like, I think, like 14,000 followers on Instagram that we built through just showing off cards, you know. So that was kind of the base. That's how we sent people over to YouTube. But back to this kind of long-term vision thing. So we figured out the content that works. And then I think, you know, we had a YouTube channel for 14 years but we only had 1000 subscribers over the first 13 years and then December 2022.

Speaker 2: 32:24

And then short form videos became a thing. I think that really was the thing that made this content style possible. We're already blowing up on TikTok, so I think people are already familiar with my content. People that kind of migrate between the two platforms, and it was around Christmas 2022. We got like 100 million views in one month and it was just like one video went viral Wow, all of the others just went with it. It was just like oh, wow, this is crazy. This does resonate with people. This nostalgia thing does resonate with people. It's not just TikTok. You know, that blew up throughout 2022. It's not just because TikTok I just got lucky. It's like no, I replicated that same content on YouTube and it also did well. So it's like okay, now we got two platforms, there's something to it, something to the content that's working.

Speaker 1: 33:17

Because you're actually connecting with people. It was. It's the connection that was the thing that unlocked.

Speaker 2: 33:22

It wasn't some algorithm thing, yeah exactly, and that's why I think Mr Beast always says always replace algorithm the word algorithm with your audience, because it's like what does the audience want, what's the audience going to favor, what's the audience going to pump? They've got to like the content.

Speaker 1: 33:39

Do you think that some creative struggle with a bit of ego, with that, you know, in creating content they want to make versus oh, people should like this. It's like the musician who writes a song that they think is amazing, but you got to look at the stats.

Speaker 2: 33:52

It's like the number one metric that I think all platforms use is your watch through percentage, so how many people watch the full video and how many people swipe away. So you like swipe through rate, so in the first five seconds, how many people choose to watch or go to the next video?

Speaker 1: 34:09

So how do you optimize those two things? So we have watch through percentage and then how quick. People swipe away, so obviously a big part of the swipe away is the hook. Yeah, that's the first Yep. What would you say the hook is? Is it the first three seconds, five seconds, 10 seconds? Yeah, it's the first kind of three, four seconds.

Speaker 2: 34:25

You've got to create unanswered questions. You've got to create unanswered questions and you've got to tap into the thing that people are passionate about. If I'm doing nostalgia, the first three seconds has to show a nostalgic situation that people can relate to and also pose a question that doesn't get answered to later in the video. So it's like, hey, I'm so bored swiping through his phone, that could be a hook. And then people are like, oh, I swipe through my phone and I'm often bored Where's?

Speaker 1: 34:58

this going.

Speaker 2: 34:59

How's he going to solve that problem?

Speaker 2: 35:00

That's just going to fly out and then Jacob comes in the younger character and he's like, he poses a question to the brother. He's like, hey, do you want to do this? And then it doesn't give what the thing is that they're going to do. And so then it builds and the suspense builds, builds, builds, builds, builds. Add some humor into it, Add some ingredients into the skit, to the point where everyone's like everyone's like what is the thing? They've got some laughs, they've got some emotion along the way, but what is the thing? And then there's the punchline that happens in the last kind of five seconds that says this is the thing. And then, if that meets expectations and people enjoy what that thing is, and it hits the mark with the vision of the channel, which is nostalgia. It fully aligns with the content that you're trying to make and what your audience are there for, then they might subscribe, they might comment, they might share. All of those things also help get your stats up in the algorithm.

Speaker 1: 35:56

I've heard with subscribers someone said it the other day that people subscribe or follow you on social media or YouTube not because of the content you've put out previously, but because of the content they expect to get from you going forward. Yeah, correct.

Speaker 2: 36:10

Yeah, that's a really good way of putting it. Yeah, 100%, and I think I'm kind of staying on that thread of long-term vision, because that's kind of where all this is sort of building up. So we got to the point where we figured out the algorithm a little bit.

Speaker 1: 36:23

So we've got a long way to go with that. So you're building an audience which I think a lot of people want to skip. The build the audience part and go straight to well, even like me, I want to do podcasts, I want to do long form conversations, but you do need to get that following which you're going to get through. You need it.

Speaker 2: 36:37

Short form. It's not a negotiable. Yeah, People want to outsource it. That doesn't work either, because if you're making a product.

Speaker 1: 36:43

Well, that's a big thing. Just in the world right now, personal brands are blowing up. If you look at every company that's doing really well, it's like even Tesla. Tesla is built on Elon Musk, or whether it's MrBeast or Kylie Jenner, it's like whatever they touch turns to gold, or even these other brands. Who's that actor? Logan Paul, yeah.

Speaker 2: 37:03

Logan Paul. Ryan Reynolds has made millions and millions of dollars not as an actor, but in business, because he's billions almost crazy Almost billions.

Speaker 1: 37:13

Yeah, because he's the personal brand and it's. In the meantime. You've got all the small business owners and entrepreneurs and aspiring creatives who think they want to be a faceless brand. They want to have a business brand, not a personal brand, and they're like, oh, can I get a marketing person to be the face of my company?

Speaker 2: 37:37

It's like you've got to be the person that doesn't work for emotional businesses. That only will work for your industrial kind of businesses.

Speaker 1: 37:45

But aren't almost all businesses now are emotional? Anything that actually sells to a consumer directly.

Speaker 2: 37:50

Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'd say. Utilities is not as much of an emotional business, but products, anything that requires the person to feel something towards that item and prefer it over the exact same item provided by someone else. Those you can, but you also can't have a faceless brand for it.

Speaker 1: 38:12

But it's maybe. Unless you have a distinct, you're way cheaper or whatever. It's probably the only real way to get cut through in an industry as well. Even if you have the best quality, lowest price steel barbarian that gets used in some mining operation, your product won't even get discovered unless there's some notable person who brings it on the scene, like you need that person of influence.

Speaker 2: 38:37

You do need it and you see a lot of people trying to outsource that influence. That doesn't work very well usually unless that person is fully dedicated to that brand and completely changes their content to be about that brand. Because if I am making a channel built around nostalgia and someone comes and says, hey, aiden, I want you to start promoting a product that has nothing to do with nostalgia, all me promoting that product is going to do is destroy my channel.

Speaker 2: 39:09

That's all it will do and it won't help them because my audience is just going to build it and go away. You're a sellout. So that's why I think it works best if you build the audience first to find the vision, build the audience around the vision, then build the product around how the audience is shaping. It's like a yeah, wow, that's very practical. The topic of the product you can say trading cards right, I can say I want to make a trading card game, cool. But I might not want to fill out the blanks of that trading card game until I understand the audience that we built through the content that is on theme with something.

Speaker 2: 39:46

So it's like I think people get the order wrong or they think that they don't have to do one and they can just outsource it, without understanding that they probably can't, unless they're some billion dollar company that can buy an influencer forever. It's just yeah, people undervalue content, crash. Now I had a lot of people be like, hey, can you make some content for my product? Just permanently? I'll give you some free stuff, I won't charge you for it. I might Do you realize how much these videos are actually worth. It could be actually like yeah, as you said.

Speaker 2: 40:21

four hours of your time. Well, it's not about that as well. It's actually more about the years that have been spent building that platform and they traded us like this, like, oh yeah, just do this, not a big deal, and I'm like, yeah, yeah, no, respectfully, I understand why they don't get it, because it's like a weird niche that you only get once you're understanding like and fully immersed in it. But what they don't realise is it's the pass or fail factor, like if you don't have that, you're probably not going to get the audience that you need to your product.

Speaker 1: 40:59

Do you find what you do very lonely? Because I've found that going into this is my first year going, you know, leaving my job and going full time as an entrepreneur and I found it really, really lonely. In fact, the longer this, the more I've gone out this year. I find myself unable to relate to people who don't live a life similar to me as much Like I understand, because I've also lived that life, but just in terms of. You know, I can understand them, but they can't understand me. So people can't understand what it means to be a content creator. They have no point of reference for building a brand, protecting that brand. Like is there a level of loneliness you experience in what you're doing? Like you can't let no one understands I think I've got.

Speaker 2: 41:41

you know, I filter a lot of things when I'm being, you know, hanging out with my everyday friends Definitely filter a lot of things, but I have enough in common with them still, through surfing and other sorts of sports, for example, that make that filtering not really a problem. It's just like I just don't talk about these things but I still engage in conversations and I still don't think entrepreneurially about surfing.

Speaker 1: 42:07

Yeah, just surf.

Speaker 2: 42:10

But you know, when I want to be creative and I want to talk to people, you know I've got people like you that I really enjoy talking to. I've got maybe three or four others that I can kind of have these pretty sophisticated conversations with and they'll get it. So that kind of helps with that outlet. I think my girlfriend, emily, can talk about this stuff really well and understands it, which is like she's always around me. So that makes that really easily. That's good. I think you need that. But then people that share the passion in specifically what I'm creating is the community. So it's like I've got that.

Speaker 1: 42:43

Actually, the audience, yeah, the audience is the other reason why you need the audience.

Speaker 2: 42:45

Well, and actually I don't see. I don't see everyone in my audience as strictly an audience. I see some people in the audience or in the community as like friends and like. There's probably 20 to 30 people on my Discord right now who, like I, would lose money to make sure that I keep them as friends, Like I would. I would never treat them as customers.

Speaker 2: 43:12

They will always be like the 30 people that I just have loads of fun talking to about the things that we're creating and they're part of the creation process. They're like fully part of it. They're like they're like running parts of the geocaching series. They're like running parts of the community, they're like running all these sorts of things, and I have like genuinely fun conversations with them. You would have seen all of the people that rocked up at the Pixxpo that we went to. They were all part of that like core community who. It's not about money when it comes to those people. It's purely about the passion behind all this and you know, keeping my corporate job and keeping all that kind of stuff makes me not have to worry about the money. So that's, that's the that has been a beautiful side of it.

Speaker 2: 43:51

Yeah, and it is a competitive advantage.

Speaker 2: 43:52

While it is stressful and it's a lot of work trying to juggle the two, it's it is the beautiful part about it, because I don't have to worry about every transaction.

Speaker 2: 44:02

I can just say I'm going to lose 10 grand this year and I'll cover that through the money that I'm making in my corporate job and in doing that, I'm going to maintain these friendships that are essentially, in the long term, going to be the thing that sustains the company to where it needs to get to. It's like a lot of people would just be focused on the transactions in that one year and they'll lose their whole audience and they'll fall off. So it's like, yeah, build your audience, look after them. Don't worry about profits in the short term, just focus on building the audience and then building depth within that audience, within a smaller group, and treat them as friends and as humans and not as customers. And I think that that is a could be wrong. You know, I'm not. I'm not a success story yet, right, so I'm just on this path, but I'm confident that that is what is going to make this work.

Speaker 1: 44:55

You've done one very key part of the equation. You've definitely built an audience.

Speaker 2: 44:59

An audience. Yeah, For sure.

Speaker 1: 45:01

I find that a hard number, like half a million subscribers it's, I mean not only the time period in which you've done it, but that's crazy. Some of the some YouTubers I follow that I kind of put on a bit of a pedestal when well, there's a photography niche have like 150,000 subscribers.

Speaker 2: 45:18

Yeah, you got to caveat that a little bit with the fact that I'm a shorts content creator and I haven't fully broken into the long form side of things yet, and so, while I've built a community through the help of discord and through the help of short form content, it's not as deep as someone who is consistently relating to their audience through long form content. So, while I think you shouldn't discredit short form creators, there's, there's an art to it and it's definitely an avenue to building that longer form audience. Eventually, it's one of the only ways to do it these days, because the the video market is so saturated. How do you build a brand in a saturated market? Very hard.

Speaker 1: 45:59

You need the short form to cut through.

Speaker 2: 46:00

You kind of need it. Yeah, a lot of the big, big long form creators were big 10 years ago when YouTube was still kind of, you know, in its infancy. So I think you need it and it's it's how you can build that depth of audience. But you're talking about your, your friends, when you're the people you watch. With 150,000 subs, they've earned it more than I have. I would say. I mean, I've done the smarter, not harder route. If that makes sense.

Speaker 1: 46:30

Yeah, yeah, it's an interesting. It's an interesting take and I think not that you can comment on it massively now. But you know once, once you have a bit more time and you do start creating more long form content, to see how well that transition happens in terms of bringing the audience over.

Speaker 2: 46:44

And I think I think that's something else worth talking about is if, if you are working a full time job on the side of your content creation journey, you can't just be a long form creator because it would take so much time for such little reward that you'd just end up, you know, even if you did make a video a day, you'd probably never get there Cause, you know, the algorithm just wouldn't support those long form style videos unless you really tapped into a niche and it just you know, and you had the right networks to help share it around and build. Some people can still do it, but it's hard, especially with like Pokemon content Everyone's making Pokemon content.

Speaker 1: 47:23

And when you say you spend four hours on a 30, you know, 30 to 60 second short form video, you think about how much time would go into a similar quality long form, 12 minute days, even a 60 minute, you know 12 minute video would be crazy days yeah.

Speaker 2: 47:38

Yeah, Well, probably like 10, 15 hours, and you know the four hours I spend on a short form content very efficient hours, or you were super dialed in now. Yeah, they're not like like if I was just starting out like those, four hours would probably be like eight or a bit a lot longer, Because just on the topic of short form creation and your process.

Speaker 1: 47:58

We're going to talk about that a little bit. What would you say is some of the prerequisite skills and maybe tips and tricks you would say in becoming an effective short form creator? But so, for instance, I've got a friend who's just started wanting to create content and she's jumping on camera. We went to film some stuff the other day. I was helping us up with the lighting and everything. I'm like okay, go, we're on the camera. Now we're going to talk about this topic, and when she was on camera her tonality was completely different to how she talked in person. So obviously, speaking to camera is one key skill, but what would you identify, some of those core skills you want to build?

Speaker 2: 48:35

Yeah, it's a really good point. I think I'm barely conservative with my approach, which probably makes it take a lot longer than it should, and the approach that I take kind of takes out all the risk of, or it takes away the need to be particularly competent in these sorts of skills that you're talking about that being authentic et cetera, and I'll kind of walk you through that.

Speaker 2: 49:03

So I keep it basic. So obviously we've got an incredible setup in this podcast room right now, but I've just got two Elgato key lights that I can just move around and I don't worry too much about the lighting. That's not what people are watching in the short form, or at least my videos. For as long as the lighting is just pretty good, it's fine, no distraction, it's basic.

Speaker 2: 49:23

Yeah. Then I bought a good camera, so that's that's all I've got. I've got a ASICs 400. That was the YouTubers choice camera. When I googled it and I was like, yeah, I've got that a tripod, two lights, that's the whole setup. Then the next thing is probably the most important thing is your script. So I'd say we talked about it a little bit before, about about the hook, then creating on our answered questions relating to the topic or the values that the audience is having. Making sure, when you use your hashtags, you're targeting those people and not do you think hashtags make a?

Speaker 2: 50:04

difference Just because, if you on all platforms or just YouTube, all platforms. So, because they impact the watch for a percentage, because if you, if you, if I hashtagged cooking or I hashtagged nothing on my short form videos, they would go to people who are not interested in nostalgia and if they're not interested in nostalgia, they're going to swipe away or they're not going to watch the whole video, and then that video is going to fall off in the first 10 minutes, so you have to target it.

Speaker 2: 50:37

So they're not important in the sense of maximizing your reach. They're important to make sure your video gets sent to the right people in the first 20 minutes, to quality control, and then YouTube's like okay, it's good quality for these people. I'm going to broaden that little bit until it goes viral.

Speaker 1: 50:53

Okay, let's, let's dial back in on the process. So you're saying you overcome the need to be excellent on camera because of your process. We'll get to that. So, the key part is doing the script, the script. How long would you spend? Obviously, you have a bit of a template. How long would you spend in that, say, four hours of making a video on the script itself?

Speaker 2: 51:09

I'll spend probably two hours making about three, four scripts for the week. Okay, yeah, and I find if you're making videos every day, it's easier to come up with new ideas because you're in that creative flow. If you leave it so you're doing like one video a week, it's harder because you just might go somewhere else and then you've got to come back to it and you're like I don't know where to start with this. So, but yeah, the script, so it's that stuff we're talking about before the hook unanswered questions create emotion, create character, make the characters relatable and at the end, have a punchline that creates a emotion for people. So it's like that was funny, or that was shocking.

Speaker 2: 51:52

There's an injustice here. I want revenge. You know there needs to be something like that that comes from the end of it. So get the script right. You're 70% of the way there. The next thing is, you know the filming itself. So your angles are pretty important. So your angles and your lighting. So I have basic lighting, but I still use it to the best of its ability. You need lighting of some kind, like you don't want to just use a dim lit room to film Some overhead light.

Speaker 2: 52:24

Yeah, natural light can be pretty good. I like to have the artificial kind of light because it really emphasizes. But also.

Speaker 1: 52:31

Sometimes I actually think it, even though it's not always a look you're going for. You get the little ring light, or even now you get the little glow. I've probably pointed out to anyone who's actually watching this you get the little glow in your eye, but it also gives you a twinkle in your eye. It makes you more captivating to look.

Speaker 2: 52:46

It's like a thing.

Speaker 1: 52:47

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 52:48

Exactly, and the angle. So if you're acting and a dad, you want to be looking up at the dad.

Speaker 1: 52:54

If you're acting the kid.

Speaker 2: 52:55

You want to be looking down at the kid, and it's not a matter of just switching the camera around, so it's, you know, facing one way or facing the other way. You've got to think about, like I don't know the science behind this or the actual I don't know what the word is for it but the lingo or the language. Yeah, I don't know what the language is, but it's like if I'm facing to the right and I'm talking, I'm the older brother and I'm talking to the right here.

Speaker 2: 53:24

You don't want the little kid then turning to the left, if that makes sense, because it's going to look like, because even though they're not in the same shot together, people just recognize, because they're turning different ways, that naturally they're not going to be facing each other. So it doesn't make sense. So you've got to actually move the camera to where the person actually would be standing for it to work, right.

Speaker 1: 53:45

So, so, and it's even you can't just do the one shot with different faces. Yeah, you need to change the framing.

Speaker 2: 53:50

And that's even if you have a green screen. Even if you have a green screen behind you, you need to tilt your head in the way that it's meant to be tilted, so that it looks like the person's actually talking to the other person. So you got to think about the angles. It's a bit interesting there. So I don't know the science Some people do. I don't think about it, I just try and try and like, do it as though I'm just standing in all the places they normally would be standing, but I don't have to worry about it. Yeah, but it makes it fiddly moving the camera around and doing all that sort of stuff.

Speaker 1: 54:19

So so how long does the filming take to get your 60 second?

Speaker 2: 54:24

video 30 minutes, 35 minutes. I will say okay, this is where I get into the techniques of things. So I will say each line, probably. And, mind you, I'm not worried about what I sound like in the filming. I'm worried about what my facial expressions are doing and what I'm, what I'm looking like, that's what's important.

Speaker 1: 54:47

So for anyone that wants to reference what he's talking about, go watch a bunch of these videos and pay attention to what he does with his face.

Speaker 2: 54:55

So it's all. It's 100% focused on that. Yeah, it's just a facial expressions and for each line and that's where the drama.

Speaker 1: 55:01

I mean it is a skit, but I would actually just say it's true of any good communicator. If you, if you're to watch a public speaker, people that just articulate, use their hands well or very expressive with their face it's like Mr Bean you know you watch him acting and he has a skit and he'll just do like the one eyeball race or he'll just do these subtle things with his face and it just does so much to the performance. Oh yeah, and I actually think, if, if you could be that dramatic, you'd be a better communicator in general. But you, you actually it's just super intentional about it.

Speaker 1: 55:32

You you film for the purpose of getting the expressions.

Speaker 2: 55:36

Yeah, exactly so. It's the. The filming is all about the facial expressions and I will say every line in that video. Sometimes I'll get it on the first shot, usually not. Some a lot of creators will get it on the first shot and I know that they do and I'm just like so jealous that they're that kind of consistent.

Speaker 1: 55:55

I'm not or I'm so will you film it a bunch of times, or are you watching like? Are you playing it back after each take?

Speaker 2: 56:00

I click record or say the same thing five times. Different facial expressions each time. Is it usually the last one you go with? It's? Yeah, I'll make a sound If I'm not happy with it afterwards. I'll be like at the end, just so I know that's not one that I want to use, okay, and then I'll not make the sound for the ones that I think are okay. And then, um, yeah, anyway, we'll get to the editing afterwards, but I'll do do that like five times for every video and I'll click on record and then I'll go to the next angle or the next thing that I need to do. And if I'm making it in batches, it's a lot more efficient because then I can be the same character and do like four skits at one time while I'm dressed as that character.

Speaker 1: 56:41

With that, yeah, so so, because I know you, at one stage when we were chatting you would only do like a video a day because you found it was too hard to. But now you can kind of do a couple of videos, Like you might do four videos, but each is the role of the dad and your film. Okay, yeah, I think um.

Speaker 2: 57:00

Having a day of content creation is far more efficient but also mentally exhausting. So staying fit and healthy is key to make sure you don't. How do you find a bit?

Speaker 1: 57:11

of a side tangent. We'll go back to your process. How do you find getting into the mental state of being on camera making a video? Because I can understand scripting. You don't have to be as emotionally on point, you just have to sit down and wait till it comes. But when pressing record being expressive with your face, like even as we're sitting down to chat you know it's pretty early in the morning we're both feeling a little bit stifled. We've only just had a coffee. It takes a while to actually kind of get relaxed and in the zone.

Speaker 2: 57:36

Yeah, yeah, exactly. So I think, um, it's like it feels like three times the amount of effort, like three hours is like nine hours If you're, if you're filming so sorry, it is exhausting and uh, like also the um, the anxiousness of it all and not knowing how it's going to turn out is another big part of it. It's like, like, leading up to that filming session, I'll be kind of, you know, thinking about it, like how am I going to do it? Like what are the little things I need to get right to make sure that this video does? Well, it's, um, it's very in depth and uh, it's funny because, you see, the vinyl production like this is just does not feel like it's that much of a process, but it is oh, it's 60 seconds, right, and it seems relatively simple, but it's, it's.

Speaker 1: 58:25

it's crazy because it's. It's almost like you're. You're the guy next door who's making a skip video. That's kind of the energy and the vibe you're giving off, but yet there's so much production that goes behind it. Yeah, there's a lot.

Speaker 2: 58:35

Yeah, Um, and then after that I'll, you know, you finish all your characters, you do all your things. Um, sometimes I'll use a green screen. That complicates things further, Because then you've got more editing to do and you've got more thinking about angles and how they kind of fit together. Yeah, Um, without knowing where people naturally would stand, you got to think about the angles of the faces and all that type of thing. So so that gets that gets complex. Then I take it to the computer and upload all the files.

Speaker 1: 59:06

So you mentioned earlier, but I'll touch on it again you, when you do a take, so you're saying a line, you'll you'll press record, you'll maybe do it four or five times and then you'll only press, you'll press unrecord for that line. So each file you're getting is for per line, chronologically, or however you've done it.

Speaker 2: 59:26

Yeah, it makes the editing easier that way.

Speaker 1: 59:28

It's just uh, you kind of just go to the last one because as someone in media, just for anyone listening or watching, learning how to minimize post production time is such a game changer. Yeah, it's like if you can just get things right before editing. Yeah, like it's very frustrating as a photographer when people just like I'll fix it in post. I'm like it's not that simple or it's easier just to get it right here and now.

Speaker 2: 59:51

Yeah, yeah, it is, yeah, but um, yeah, I was. I was still sorry about five times. Press for every line, have separate files, Yep, Download it all. Use Final Cut Pro. So that's the. It's probably not the most complicated. Like, if I really want to up my game I'll probably have to switch programs, Move to something a little bit more sophisticated. So, especially if I wanted to get into, like special effects and those types of things, yeah, but it's really user-friendly. So if you're doing, you know, stuff like I'm doing, it's the most efficient to use. I would say Then I drop all the files into Final Cut Pro. I have a sense for like what ones I do and don't need In terms of like I'll look at the sound bar at the bottom and it shows where all the speaking happens and I'll kind of know which ones were the last part of the speaking as the one I want to use.

Speaker 1: 1:00:46

I'll just Well, because you'll see that nah, like you're saying, when you didn't like a take, you have that Because I found when I was editing 12 months ago, when I was doing a bit more live streaming which I might get back to, I would edit the videos after every day and I would say every time I say um, when you say the word um, there's a break in the sound file, then a big spike and then another break. So you can very clearly see where your filler words are, but I imagine reading sound files is yeah, sound files are key.

Speaker 2: 1:01:15

You learn a lot from like. You don't try to actively learn about it, but you kind of just get the hang of. It's just so helpful seeing the sound file. Um, then I'll crop everything out. Spend like five minutes, I reckon. Um, and I'm pretty quick with it now, Like I'm using keyboard shortcuts and stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

Like the whole thing doesn't involve any clicks, it's just like zooming around and, yeah, five minutes got all the files I need. Then I'll order them in the way that they need to be ordered, based on the script Um. Then I will do the ADR. Uh, so that's the voiceover. So I'll manually voiceover every single line that I do, and that feels highly inefficient. But it's that point that I made at the start about I don't need to be talented at content creation. Well, I don't need to be talented at um acting.

Speaker 1: 1:02:07

So to be clear, you just do the videos to get the expression of your face, say in the line, and then the actual voiceover is a separate To get the voice right, yeah, right, and so then then I might do.

Speaker 2: 1:02:21

Sometimes I'll get the voiceover and each individual clip will have its own separate voice recording, and sometimes I'll get it right on the first try. Other times it'll take three or four tries to get the right voice, so it's a long process.

Speaker 1: 1:02:36

Um, I just I know this has been an evolution, but I can just imagine that for sure. This video taking like 10 hours. Oh yeah, trying to do it this way, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:02:47

Um, then, like once I've got all the voices, good, then you start thinking about the psychology of a video, right, so you've got it all lined up. It's all kind of yeah, and now does it flow. And now does it flow Exactly. And you're going to get rid of every bit of blank space on that sound file to make sure that there's always some form of talking going on right. And, um, sometimes you take out too much of the Quite, you know the blank sound and it'll jump to the next person too quickly, or there isn't enough suspense being built because of the lack of pause, so you have to add the pause back in.

Speaker 2: 1:03:26

And then you do it, you watch it at the end, you keep iterating until you watch it at the end and you're like yes, that all felt. It's like a feeling you get. It's like that felt super smooth. You know, it's like there was nothing in there where it felt like the pause was too long.

Speaker 1: 1:03:39

There's nothing in there where Do you feel like you can judge that now? Yeah, and how much videos are going to do well, based on just a feel.

Speaker 2: 1:03:46

Yep, generally, yeah, yeah, yeah. I know when watch time is going to be low because of this certain partner and if I'm rushing the editing and I forget to really do that quality check at the end, quite often it won't work out like the video. The whole effort is not worth it because I haven't done that last little quality review.

Speaker 2: 1:04:09

And it gets like that. You know you're like all these 1% is at the end. You know you feel like, oh, I've already put in all the effort, like do I really have to do all these other things? Can I just upload it? But it's kind of like if you don't do it properly and you don't get rid of that one little part that is going to get people to click off, you don't get rid of that or you don't adjust it or have something else creative to fill the blank. You've just wasted that whole day of making a video.

Speaker 1: 1:04:33

It's so brutal. But that's life, though, right. Yeah, it's actually. There's just key moments. It's like For me, it's like doing a wedding, rocking up, doing all the prep work, performing and then never sending the invoice Correct. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:04:46

Yeah, you gotta do everything. You've got to do it, man, and so you do all those quality checks. Then you've got a video that is likely going to do pretty well, especially if the punchline's good, especially if your hook's pretty good and you built the suspense nicely and you've got your character's good. I said, they're the key parts. You know your character development, your script and that kind of fine tuning at the end with the getting the transitions between each clip really smooth. Those are the three key things, and then your lighting and your voiceover quality, your facial expressions. They're all extra nice things to have that are still important enough to put it into, but they're not the foundational pieces.

Speaker 1: 1:05:30

I don't think so. Yeah, I don't think so.

Speaker 2: 1:05:31

I think the foundational pieces is your script and, yeah, like you can do a, I reckon I could do a pretty low quality production with a top quality script and that video would still do pretty good. So, yeah, I think that's what it comes down to from my style of content For this type of thing. You need it, you need the production. Yeah, it's interesting.

Speaker 1: 1:05:52

Obviously, this is not scripted. This is just free flowing.

Speaker 1: 1:05:55

So, yeah, I mean I guess it's hard for you to comment on, maybe advice you'd give for people in other niches, or this is short form advice. This is short form advice, and even to me, listening to that, I'm sure a lot of other people feel the same way. That sounds like a lot of work and it is a lot of work, but that's also the reason why you've. You probably attribute that to being one of the larger reasons why you've been out of gross so rapidly as well. Yeah, because you have done those 1% that have led to you getting unusual results.

Speaker 2: 1:06:25

Yes, exactly, and what I would say is it does seem like a lot of effort. Some people have a formula that doesn't require that effort. So this is what I have done to achieve what I've achieved. There are people with, and I've seen Luke Davidson. He's a 20 year old skit creator, based in Canada, I think, and kind of look up to him even though he's younger than me, he's really weird and he showed the behind the scenes of him making a video.

Speaker 2: 1:06:58

And he just has a phone that he puts on a timer and he's like it's like clicks it, 3, 2, 1, does the voice. Next one 3, 2, 1, does the voice. Puts a wig on, clicks it again, 3, 2, 1, does the voice. I don't know if this is just for the short or if this is actually his reality. Yeah, he would finish all of it in like five minutes and he does put a bit of effort into editing I don't know how much, but it feels like his process probably like 40 minutes and he's getting like some of his videos have like 200 million views. So I personally like don't want to try to do that, just because I think he's probably just a very good like actor and his scripts are incredible. His scripts are like top notch like for this type of content.

Speaker 2: 1:07:56

I think that's where he can get away with the quicker production, because his scripts are so good and because he's now a household name he's got 12 million subscribers. You know he's huge.

Speaker 1: 1:08:08

Well, as you've said too. I don't know if we've talked about in this conversation, but you know, youtube success, or content creation success, is very much a momentum game. It is Like once you hit a million views on one video, it kind of transfers over to your other videos.

Speaker 2: 1:08:24

And I would say I'd say that if I uploaded his videos on my channel like they wouldn't do anywhere near as well just because of the momentum he's built on his channel, right. So back to the question about like this feels like a lot of effort. It's was that I'm like you know I built what I've done with that effort. I don't want to change the formula, you know it's like. It's like if I'd built the 500 K with, you know 40 minute editing, you know editing processes, like that's fine, but because I've built an expectation that the video is going to look like this, they're going to feel like this, they're going to, you know, like the audience expects that. So I can't change and I feel like when I do change and I have tried a couple of times like people notice it's okay, from the method, yeah, it's like oh, they'll be like oh, are you sick?

Speaker 1: 1:09:16

Like it doesn't sound like Jacob yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:09:18

It's like a weird. It's a weird thing. Oh no, you've trapped yourself. You know I may never have got there if I didn't do it. So it's like I'm just going to keep doing it.

Speaker 1: 1:09:27

It's part of the game.

Speaker 2: 1:09:28

But yeah, like I said, it compensates for me having to be a good actor, or for me having to be a good actor in general, so facial expressions and voices.

Speaker 1: 1:09:37

It's interesting, going like full circle to some of the things we talked about, just with building brand and stuff. You can't outsource some of this stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:09:44

You literally can't, because the creation is in the end.

Speaker 1: 1:09:46

Like oh, how could I streamline this? Blah, blah, blah blah. But the moment you change, the winning formula involves you doing the grindy stuff, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:09:54

And a lot of the like. You know I talked about the flow and make sure it's a smooth flow. The only way you can get that smooth flow is from within you and you know your vision, you know your audience and you know what that flow needs to be Right. Like someone else isn't going to get it, they're going to try and do it too professionally yeah, if they're an expert and they'll kill it by doing things too over the top. The other thing is zooming in and out like it's part of the flow. It's a visual flow. It's like there's a verbal flow and there's a visual flow. So if my you know the dad character is speaking for I don't know five seconds, for example, he's got multiple lines that are consecutive then halfway through you'll want to make sure that you're zooming into the dad's face and he's changing his you know his facial expression or maybe even his facial angle, just to make sure you don't lose that person while they're on the same screen for five seconds. Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:10:56

Yeah. So, yeah that's the little micro hooks.

Speaker 2: 1:11:01

I'm not trying to say that is the only formula to succeed with shorts videos, but is the formula that I have used and it's a formula that I think makes a difference for me. Yeah, Crazy.

Speaker 1: 1:11:15

There's a lot of takeaways for someone who wants to get into short creation from this.

Speaker 1: 1:11:20

but, yeah, I think there's a lot of lessons and I guess we maybe we'll touch on the momentum thing, that we'll go in a different direction, but building momentum in, like, you have been extremely consistent and I would say not just in Pokemon, but in all the things that you've thrived in. Consistency has played a huge piece and, as you would have said, like whether it's to do with studying, you may not be the most genetically gifted, smartest, naturally high IQ or whatever person in the room, but you definitely like. Yeah, the tunnel vision is real.

Speaker 1: 1:11:51

The tunnel vision, the tunnel vision, the locking in, it's the, it's the it's going back to what we talked about at the very start.

Speaker 2: 1:11:57

I think it's the life philosophy behind things. So it's like it all comes to. Like you know, it's December, we have one video that takes off right. A lot of people will think, oh great, I'm now going to make a couple more videos, try and make the most of this, right. But instead I will think I'm going to literally put every last piece of my life into making as many possible high quality videos as I can, thinking about you know what's happening around Christmas. I want to make Christmas videos. You know, I'm going to, I'm going to really tap into the spirit and I'm going to, I'm going to make. You know, even though I'm on holidays, I'm going to make one video a day at least, sometimes two videos a day, and just get up as many as I humanly can, because I know that putting all that effort in in one month is going to be the equivalent of a whole year's worth of effort, if, if I was to make videos outside of that and it has been, yeah, like that was the trend right Over this holiday period.

Speaker 2: 1:12:52

You went up a hundred thousand subs, a hundred hundred hundred seventy thousand, Like it's crazy, yeah, and so it's like I didn't make that many between February and November.

Speaker 1: 1:13:03

That it's bad. That's correct. There's such a principle there in general about in life. You have like windows of opportunity where, like the 80, 20 principle of like 80% of your results come from 20% of the effort, is like one little window in time. For example, when you're, when you negotiate, like in sales, when you're negotiating a deal, that that conversation around price and profit and closing you may have put 100, 200 hours into putting together a proposal, creating your product and everything, Yet that little conversation around closing the deal, discussing the money, that's like 90, everything hinges on that A hundred percent, and so I think, I think that that is a big philosophy thing, where it's like, when people see the window of opportunity, it's not just oh, that's nice, I'm going to try and do a little bit to get the most of that.

Speaker 1: 1:13:53

It's actually no, this is pivotal, this is everything Put the rest of my life on hold. We've got to make the most of this. The door's only going to be open for a little while, a little while.

Speaker 2: 1:14:01

This is my one chance and if I miss this chance it may never come again. And it's like, it's like get the absolute most out of that and and and that comes with everything, like it happened so many times in my life where I've seen the opportunity.

Speaker 2: 1:14:15

I could have easily not have thrown everything into it and maybe got only part of that opportunity, but instead it's catapulted, it's the next thing, to the next thing, to the next thing, and I think the stuff with YouTube is definitely like the first hundred million that we got in 2022. And then this December as well, same thing happened. And then you know, geopowers has been built up, so let's get the most that we can out of GeoPowers, or for GeoPowers through this cloud, too. So it's like we're getting, you know, a hundred million views a month. Whatever it is, I now want to make a four part skit series that leads into GeoPowers and builds a motion around.

Speaker 2: 1:14:58

GeoPowers and you know, the little brother's getting scammed by everyone and he decides that he's going to take life into his own matters and create his own card game. And now, all of a sudden, geopowers new card game is part of like, embedded in the series, and it's like. It's like. Now a hundred million people potentially have seen.

Speaker 1: 1:15:15

So you got the attention wave and you're going to channel it into the thing you want it to.

Speaker 2: 1:15:18

Yeah, but it's like in a perfect world you would have months leading up to that point in time, right, you'd have strategies, you'd have documented power points, you'd have all these things that perfectly lead to how you're going to do that to absolutely maximize it. But the thing is, these opportunities they come, and to maintain the opportunities, you need to be constantly working and then, at the same time, you need to be thinking strategy and doing that stuff without the months of prep.

Speaker 1: 1:15:47

So it's like how do you find taking a bit of a different turn? Cause, yeah, it makes the most of these winners of opportunity and you've got to be able to put everything on hold and you've got to be thinking long term and short term simultaneously. You've got to have the big picture strategy and then actually executing. For people who are similar to yourself, you know they've got other things going on in their life They've got a job, maybe they've even got like a family, or they've got a mortgage that's pretty full on, or they're trying to like balance, playing sport or having a social life. I guess the sacrifices that must be made. But how do you, how do you navigate that space of like these times, of having to make these trade-offs that are a little bit uncomfortable?

Speaker 1: 1:16:27

and then potentially getting stuck in them, cause I know for you, being your friend, there's times where you're really full on with YouTube and we're hanging out, you're on your phone a lot and you're like you can't switch off, whereas other times you can be way more present.

Speaker 2: 1:16:40

Yeah, it is hard, man, it's really really hard and I think that's you know, if you take another step back, the window of opportunity of being in your twenties is another window of opportunity, because once you have kids, that's kind of a non-negotiable for me. If I had kids, I'm not going to, I'm not going to pursue these opportunities as hard as I'm pursuing them now, because I feel like I now have a responsibility, which is kids. That comes first. That is the opportunity that I need to maximize the kids.

Speaker 2: 1:17:07

Yeah that happens right. And I've had this discussion with my girlfriend Emily. I've kind of said look, while I'm in my twenties, I want to do the most that I can. We've had a bit of a negotiation about that. I'm like, okay, we'll do four weeks of holidays a year where I'm completely switched off. That's what we've agreed on. So we're going to go to Europe this year for four weeks, but when I'm in that time of the year you have to have a big backlog of content.

Speaker 2: 1:17:30

Yeah, and maybe yeah, and the thing about you know having someone as supportive as like Emily, is that she gets it. She gets it all. A lot of people wouldn't get it. A lot of partners wouldn't get it and that'd get frustrated by it. They wouldn't understand, potentially lead to a relationship breakup Like it's. You know it's like that, so that would be the sacrifice, but for me I'm lucky because I've got someone that understands it.

Speaker 1: 1:17:57

It is that perfect storm, isn't it? It's the momentum, it's the right, it's the window of opportunity, the ability to go after of it without unraveling the rest of your life.

Speaker 2: 1:18:05

Yes, and relationships, a lot of people do unravel the rest of their lives for showing it too hard. So that is something at small friend circles. So I've really dialed into like what is actually important? Who is actually important? Only put effort into those people. Don't try to be friends with everyone. Don't try to have coffee dates with you know acquaintances all the time, because they're not leading to anything other than filling blank space.

Speaker 1: 1:18:30

So I've been thinking that, coming to 2024, one of my only real goals was, like I need to just say no to a lot more stuff. That was like one of my primary thing. Yeah, 100%.

Speaker 2: 1:18:40

And yeah, that's, yeah, that's how you do it and, to be honest, yeah, it's sacrifice. So it is, you're going to go down the content creator path. A lot of people are like, oh, that's the easiest job in the world, like what the hell?

Speaker 1: 1:18:53

Yeah, and that's you know. To come full circle to the conversation we had at the start about vocation and that sort of thing, not everyone's meant to be a creator, creative and entrepreneur. Yeah, if you are happy doing what you do.

Speaker 1: 1:19:09

You've won the lottery because you know, that's the thing I don't. I don't like, I want to be an entrepreneur and I kind of have to do it. When I, when I tried working a job, all I would do is think about entrepreneurship. Yeah, when I was, when I was a school teacher, I'd go to work, listen to business podcasts and books and I think of all these ideas of things I would prefer to do.

Speaker 1: 1:19:28

And it I was just miserable and I couldn't shake off that tension I was living in. So in a way, I feel like I'm depressed, unless I'll live with regret if I don't try. But I'm I'm burdened by that and I have to relieve that burden, much like you have to create YouTube videos. Yeah, I think, I think, I think if you don't have that, it's probably easier and happier and you can have more balance.

Speaker 2: 1:19:48

You can have more friends, you can do more casual coffee dates and yeah, I think kind of being creative, it also stems from this realization that, like, life is finite and you get a certain amount of years right, and so within those years, like you want to experience as much as you possibly can and and you want to really tap into every part of potential that you have. Some people don't say life that way. They say life as I'm just going to experience the life within the boundaries that you know, allow me to live this comfortable life and that makes me happy.

Speaker 2: 1:20:22

But for me it's like that doesn't make me happy and so, unless I explore and live on the edges, constantly, kind of trying to understand the boundaries and find like a new realms and eras and all these things. Yeah, it gets pretty, pretty, pretty boring.

Speaker 1: 1:20:42

Yeah, I like that about you actually because it's that's helped me a lot being around your end Cause I think with my upbringing and family, you know, my mom is definitely a let's keep everyone together, let's keep everyone safe, let's be at peace, and it's very much comfort zone, energy, and it can make you very fearful of things, but then I, so I remember when we were maybe 2013, 2014, we went cliff jumping for the first time.

Speaker 1: 1:21:07

you know flips and you know, you go to the tallest point of this cliff, face and do like a double back twist, flip to the water below, which apparently had sharks in it. It was craziness and I just remember the first time being with you guys, you're all jumping, I'm like I got to jump, everyone else is yeah, and it's nice to be like push to the edge and actually take those risks, cause there is a payoff, as you're finding with, like the YouTube channel, because you live somewhat of a reckless risk taking life you get to, you get the perks of that as well.

Speaker 2: 1:21:39

You do, yeah, and I think. I think there's a point where if, if, like, if YouTube became full time, I would wake up every morning just thinking, yes, like this is this is Christmas day.

Speaker 1: 1:21:50

I'll get his life every day.

Speaker 2: 1:21:51

You know, it would be very different. And I think you've seen me when I'm in my low points, when I'm, you know, defeated in the creative space and I'm literally just working, you know, 13, 14 hour days at work and don't have time for anything else, and that is like the most lowest point I can ever get to. It's like, yeah, it's like, for as long as that exists, it's always going to be some optimal. So I would love to have a reality where you just wake up every morning thinking, yes, life is about to happen and I'm pumped for it, excited for it.

Speaker 1: 1:22:29

I think I think you want to try strive towards that as much as you can, but the reality is you never fully going to arrive. So I think there is just like you've got to be grateful for where you're at in the journey and just feeling like at least I'm in the right direction. You know, I'm building this longterm vision because even doing what I do, I sometimes remind myself, even when it's like, you know, there's a lull in business and you have got a lot of income coming in, or maybe something didn't work out, or even if you have, like relational issues that go on or whatever, or you get sick for three months, it's nice to have that longer term perspective and be like, hey, I'm still grateful for what I've got, Like I'm still heading in the right direction. Yeah, it's a great.

Speaker 2: 1:23:09

I think the caveat would be like if you're, if you're getting pushed to the point of exhaustion all the time, that is when the I don't want to you know, I don't want today to happen kind of starts kicking not in a you know real intense, but you know, when you wake up feeling like, oh, this, this, this is just going to be another exhausting day and I don't see the light at the end of the tunnel, you know, that's, that's what I want gone.

Speaker 2: 1:23:32

I want to wake up feeling like, yeah, today's going to be a challenge, but I can actually now enjoy, I have time to enjoy all the things that life has to offer. You know, you know, it's a so it's not about, you know, not being grateful for things that I've got, but it's. It's been grateful for having the things that I've got and having the time to appreciate them properly. It's like, uh, right now I can't appreciate a lot of things properly because it's too much going on Trying to create this world.

Speaker 1: 1:24:00

Yeah, yeah, it's the tension to live in, hey. Life is about balance, hey, and that's why I think it's really cool to have these we'll probably wrap up soon, but having these behind the scenes conversations, because from an outside point of view, people can see, they can see the YouTube channel or they can see you in the professional sense.

Speaker 1: 1:24:16

Yeah Well they, they see, like maybe the social media accolades or anything like that, but the reality is like these sacrifices, these trade-offs, these tensions, these struggles, and there's so much work that goes in behind the scenes there's a lot.

Speaker 1: 1:24:29

And sometimes I think too, as you said, I don't. I don't think it's worth envying what other people have too, because you don't know what goes into it. Yeah, correct Cause people, even people listening to this, you've just given away your formula. You can go be poke a retro, you can swipe his whole thing. You can create content around nostalgia. You can write scripts, you can record them, the exact same way Aiden does. Are you going to do it? No way.

Speaker 2: 1:24:53

Yeah Well, depending on how much people want it, I obviously want to do it, but chances are like you know, you're not.

Speaker 1: 1:24:57

you're not concerned about someone stealing your idea or your thing, because it executions everything, executions everything.

Speaker 2: 1:25:02

Yeah, there's a good chance that you do it and it won't take off for a good you know 12 months.

Speaker 1: 1:25:08

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:25:08

And then when it does, it's like oh, now, now I can make the most of this opportunity, but will you make it through the 12 months? That's the, that's the hardest part. It's like my channel we know 12 years to find out what actually worked.

Speaker 1: 1:25:21

So it's yeah, crazy, all right, so two questions before we wrap up. One is uh, so what's next for you in terms of what's coming up on the horizon, whether it's. Gia Pals the channel. Where are you thinking in that space? And then the second thing is how can people follow and find out more about what you're doing?

Speaker 2: 1:25:39

Yeah, it's a good question. So the first, the first one is um, we're going to continue to make content every single day on YouTube. That's the goal for this year, until the point where the opportunity runs dry, you know, the opportunity being the YouTube algorithms pumping Um, and in doing that we're hoping to get to a million subscribers by the end of the year and maintain the current level of viewership that we've got now, and then that'll set us up really nicely to launch the Gia Pals game, probably in around October, november this year, which will be the fully fledged completed card game, slash board game, depending on where we go with the, the actual format. But we are play testing and where we're getting it all made, we're making booster backs pretty soon. So it's all coming together. We're going to have an online version of the game that people can like beta test, which would be really cool, it's so funny.

Speaker 1: 1:26:27

Anyone who's listened to this right now? Yes, he does make YouTube videos every day. We know that. That's four hours per video. Yes, he works full time. Yes, he's making a board game and developing artwork. Yeah, yeah, it's a lot.

Speaker 2: 1:26:41

Yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:26:42

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:26:42

Yeah, so, but yeah, we're going to try and maintain the YouTube channel so it can help to launch the Gia Pals game when it's ready by the end of the year. I'm going to continue working full time. I'm doing a lot of international travel this year with work, so we'll be in Houston, singapore, um, going to Europe for four weeks. So there's a lot of things I need to plan for to make sure that I'm not falling off during those. Those weeks it's going to be rollercoaster. Strap in a couple of. Yeah, I have to probably take a couple of days of leave and just spend the whole day making like 10 videos and lining them all up. Maybe need to get a laptop and get the editing software on the laptop Could be a good shout, um, so that that is the number one kind of goal I would say.

Speaker 2: 1:27:27

Then, 2025 is really a test to see if we've maintained, you know, over the last 12 months, if we've got consistency with it all. Is it enough to become a long-term kind of like give this a good hard crack to it full time, that'll be the test. But it may not. You know it's. It's fickle, everything's fickle. Some people can get a million subscribers and then be dead channel on the next, you know, couple of months.

Speaker 1: 1:27:53

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:27:53

You gotta. It's going to be more than just YouTube. It's got to be more than just YouTube. You need to have a real, real solid community bond and process behind what you're doing. So I haven't got that.

Speaker 1: 1:28:03

And a product which is in development In development, yep.

Speaker 2: 1:28:05

So I haven't got that yet. So 2024 is a year to do all that, while trying to find some form of balance in life in the meantime.

Speaker 1: 1:28:14

So some form of balance in life. Occasionally hang out with your girlfriend, surf and see some friends yeah, that's it. Go to Christmas with the family, that's it.

Speaker 2: 1:28:22

So that's the goal for 2024. 2025 will be the, you know, the year we decide whether it's going to happen or not. Assess, yeah, yep. And in terms of where people can find out where to follow us, I'd say start with YouTube. So if you follow Pucky Retro, that'll take you to my main YouTube channel with all my skip videos and those types of things, but then that'll also have a video on there that explains everything about geo-powers, and so geo-powers is a trading card game that we're developing.

Speaker 2: 1:28:57

So if you're an adult or you're younger and want to get into a new card game, it's definitely worth checking out. It's both. You can play it indoors and out outdoors. So we hide these cards physically all around the world. People go and try and find them and it's like geo-caching, so you can literally go and walk into a forest and find one of these cards and take it home, and it's then like a collectible Treasure Hunt and there's competitions. So there's teams on our Discord page you can join our Discord if you really want to get into it and there's Treasure Hunting teams. So there's like the Discord's divided into three teams and the team that finds the most geo-powers at the end of each series wins a trophy card, which is like a card that you can only win by winning these series. So yeah, start with the YouTube, watch the geo-powers video, join the Discord if you think you're going to be interested. We're also on Instagram as both Paki Retro and geo-powers, as well, still on.

Speaker 2: 1:29:52

TikTok, still on TikTok. We're on everything. So if you just go, every social media platform you use just geo-powers and Paki Retro, but I'd say yeah, the Discord is where all the action's happening. So if you join the Discord, that'll be the best place to kind of stay in touch.

Speaker 1: 1:30:08

Brilliant. Oh, thanks for your time, aiden, you're a busy man. And thanks, kat. We'll have another chat soon, sounds good, so yeah.